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Lovecraft

So. 'The Rats in The Walls.' omg so freaked out. And I'm not sure exactly where in there lies the urge to burn those pages/wish I had never read the story, but it was that bad after first reading it.

And I will probably never read it again, because it's one thing to sit down and force my self to re-read certain passages and try to figure out what was doing this to me - and another, having done so, to turn around and keep sticking my hand into a fire. It's somewhere in the cannibalism, because the next story in the book I'm reading now is 'The Picture in the House' and that... was bad, but not as much so.

Somewhere in this mix of insanities is the idea that there are certain Outside Forces humanity is all but incapable of fighting, and they all thus far have been Terribly Evils. There is this... surrender to and sinking into fear, here, that makes me wonder about his mental state? Then there's Randolph Carter. Whom I only reached a couple of days after Rats, and I could cry that there isn't more of him in this book. I know there isn't, because I cheated and checked - The Silver Key made such a wonderful balm, after the first two. Even though the rest of them aren't as bad, I needed that.

But the thing is, even with the freaked-out induced by Rats, I couldn't just.. stop. For one thing, if I hadn't done something I'd have had nightmares. I still did, but I got myself calmed down enough that it was... strange, and titled off-center. Less a nightmare than a dream that thought it should be one. Those damned caverns where there, and there were people in them, but they were more ghosts than anything, and somehow - the crew of DS9 was in there, getting out those people who were sill able to escape? Which included a younger set of themselves. It amused me that young Cisco kept wanting to talk to his older self and find out what was going on. Dax was pulling him back, though...

So. For one thing, there's something I remember reading once that I took to heart, though I cannot remember where I read it. I can't even remember the exact wording, just that you should read things you don't like as well as those you do, and explore in a literary sense to expand yourself as a writer? So after the initial 'oh my God why did I read that? ;_;' I stopped and thought, 'Okay clearly there is something I need to deal with here.'

I don't like the idea of surrendering to this sort of nightmarish evil. Which is essentially what seemed to me happened to the guy in Rats. I don't like cannibalism. I don't like the way everything Outside at first seems to be a horror, to Lovecraft - as if his mind did not admit of the possibility of a non-human sentience that is not Evil, or barring that, repellant to humanity due to not being human.

But part of what drew me into this, aside from liking the Call of Cthulhu and the beauty of the way he puts words together, is that certain muses reacted to that and I felt like... here was something I should pursue, if I wanted to do better writing them. In this, I was not disappointed.

Gerald Tarrant - It's just about impossible to speak of Gerald without Damien being involved. Part of that is that it's... the only parallel I can think of is DiR. The way you see Bran mostly through Will, you see Gerald mostly through Damien. Only, there are Issues that Damien brings into it from the beginning of the story, and things that go almost unspoken because they are so obvious to the characters involved. Like Gerald's species-ism, which has a lot in common with Lovecraft's fears. And it had not really meant anything to me, until this - nor had it occurred to me that he was scared of those things he defined as other. Which folds into why I have always thought the man is insane, albeit a very controlled and disguised insanity - by any definition of Other that can be applied to that planet? He is Other, or a precursor of what humanity could become under the conditions of their colony world.

Then there's Bakura Ryou. And I wondered, what could such a gentle, dreamer-type person want with this? 'Bakura', this being the only name I can apply to the Spirit of the Ring (and a lot easier than typing that out all the time) him I could see. He has a thing about blood, and can be supinely casually violent... it's not so much that he's focused on violence, as that he seems to see it as a tool... but Ryou?

Then I read the Silver Key. There is an easy and immediate parallel there, Randolph and the Key/Ryou and the Ring. Only. It makes me wonder exactly what the boy thinks the Ring is, you know. Further speculation there will have to wait until I can find more of Randolph Carter.

In the meantime, I shall take refuge in the prosaic reality of a history-book about tea that I picked up on my latest library run.

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oddly, that makes me want to find The Tao of Tea, which leads sideways to wanting The Tao of Pooh, which daisy-chains me over to Edgar Allan Poe and "The Fall of the House of Usher"--which is what Ryou makes me think of. Just a bit. HPL's brain worked in very interesting ways^^
...tch, think I'll read the Tales of the Cthulhu Mythos now instead of after these other ones...or simultaneously, because the first cluster's due on the 16th =p
(love that the DS9 crew got mixed up in that!)

^^ I remember reading once, a poem-parody of Usher. Aloud. In front of the class. I was so nervous about it, I couldn't even tell if they were laughing at the poem or me. << x.x

I thought the poem was funny though?

I thought it was beautiful that it was DS9 - and especially Cisko. I think Cisco (Sisko? >.< cannot remember the right spelling!) was my subconscious raspberrying the entire story, actually? It's just... for a guy sitting in the center of a whirlwind of Phrophecy and internecine religious debates in which he was an object, and all the wormhole beings - he was very pragmatic about the entire thing. And when he did meet The Phrophets, as the Bajorans called them, he talked to them. Just like people. People he had no idea how to talk to, but that didn't stop him. ...nothing much did.

Not even Q. XD I have suddenly and vividly recalled Q trying to screw around with him, setting them up in a boxing arena yet expecting a battle of wits. Cisco punched him. >:)

Q: *shocked and slightly quavering voice* You hit me!

Dax I think was more the voice of experiance, being Trill, and also knowing that Cisco has this thing about screwing with temperoral mechanics, at times inadvertantly. << And the Trek people have laws about that sort of thing, and him talking to his elder self well...

I dunno... maybe it's just me, but I react well to things like madness and bloodlust and nightmare. In fact I get rather bored with it. I'm more enthralled by suspense -- the darkness which doesn't reveal its horrors all at once -- than some terrible thing which you must see and can't escape. I'm not real sure if that makes me jaded or detached or maybe just because I've seen and heard real horrors in my life, even if I wasn't participating as more than an observer. It's the secret of the Other; it's only horrifying, IMO, if you don't know its name. It's the pre-birth horror, the world that hasn't happened yet because you haven't entered it.

I guess the key is that I've always been the Other. Even if I didn't consciously exclude myself, I was doing it to myself, stepping back in my 'role' as observer. Watcher. I could never watch carefully enough if I was involved. I honestly never in my life have defined myself with anything bigger than myself. Everything's labels that peel off rather easily. My duties, responsibilities, and capacities, perhaps -- but not my own *self*. And from that perspective? Being the Other is not so bad. It gives you a freedom that's both scary and unlimited.

So I guess... a lot of the things that intrigue, beguile, terrify you -- I find to be expected if not normal. Normal is just when something happens a lot. It doesn't necessarily link, in my head, as the subset of things that are possible. In that sense you have an edge on me, as I can't easily replicate that wonder of finding the Other, when I'm sitting here in its territory and eating its food.

What does it leave? The stories I love the most are the ones that reveal what was always there. Seeking out the Other is such a fraught and violent business. How pointless to me, when we are all the Other.

Okay - so I made my long comment and didn't make it a reply. Oooops. See below?

Madness, okay - that's not so bad. In some case, good even. It's fun to dissect things and try to figure out why he is insane. It bothered me that I couldn't figure out what was wrong with Gerald, because he comes off very controlled and disciplined and maybe just a little high-strung for his own good? But I knew there was something there I had no words, like being able to sense a fault-line, understanding it's there, without knowing anything about geology. All you can say is you know there's something wrong with the ground at a certain point.

Bloodlust clearly has it's iffy points for me... and nightmare, I don't know... I think the underlying thing that bothers me is the helplessness, and it wouldn't matter what form that came in so long as I could buy the person not being able to get out. Rats communicated that very well, and I use communicated as in a disease. >.< Everything happened so fast, it was like the central guy was just caught in a rip-tide and pulled without ever quite being aware of what had happened to him. *shudder*

Something else I've noticed bothers me, is just heat. I remember talking with you about the Masho and their armors, and you calling Rajura a 'dark summer' and it threw me. Like, I had such a set notion of summer as being heat/sweat/pain/decay/bad that it hadn't really occured to me that other people might not see it that way? ^^; Oh, and nevermind his Spiderness and there are more of those in summer too - and the way heat makes me sooo freaking sleepy all the time and just >.<

I have never been that afraid of Others, though - of Monsters, yes, and here I think I define more as a being or person so lacking in some as-yet-undefined thing that I cannot empathize with them? At all? Worst one I've ever read was in Tad Williams' Otherland books - and there I could see where it ought to be possible to empathize with him, but no. If I'd met him in real life I would shoot him, no question of it. And there, while he scared the crud out of me? It wasn't on the same visercal level as with Rats, I suppose because there are heroes in Otherland. A collection of heroes that have been scattered rather like certain Digimon crews, but they were there, they eventually learned he existed, my biggest fear for them was not that they couldn't stop him so much as they weren't going to be able to reach him in time to do anything. XD It's funny, dealing with Otherness in various guises is one of the underlying themes in the book, but That Bastard was the only one who freaked me at all.

I think, if I were to choose an archtype - I would have to be a Seeker. A rather cautious one, maybe, but that was my thing as a little kid - that song of Bilbo and Frodo's in Tolkein, about going out traveling? That, I wanted - or for a path to Someplace Else to magically appear in my yard. That would've been nice.

Possibly another part of what gave me such a bad turn with that was the protagnonist (I cannot call him a hero - the ancestor who left the Accursed Ancestral Dwelling after killing all his Evil Kin, he would qualify. Sortof. But not this guy)the guy finds or is called by an Other that is defintely a Monster - so far as I've yet seen, all Lovecraft's Others are. But then the humans for the most part are just as bad - the nasty inbred backwater humans. Chiefly. I have a feeling I haven't gotten far enough to meet any intellectual badguys? Although there is always the fact of the Necronomicron, which did not write itself. <<

Will have to come back to all of this, shower calls! ^^

Okay, easier to connect take 2 to the first ^^

And just... part of the reason I'd choose Seeker is because of that music I've mentioned? There are some muses who have a song of thier own, the lasting ones and their stories, but mostly I have to look for things that resonate... and it just occured to me, that's probably what feeds the sense of wonder, knowing what I'm looking for and wanting to see where I'll find it, what it sounds like this time.

...and then I read that, and and - 'Ooooh. Sounds like helplessness and fear and one of those horrible broken-violin-strings horror!!! What have I done, why did I read this?!'

...You know, if I had read these stories when I was younger it could concievably have permentaly screwed with my brain? o.o;;

Actually I'm not sure you wouldn't like the Lovecraft stories in that case? For suspense that never quite explains itself, The Music of Erich Zann - all the evils are in fact the underlying condition of the universe, it's just when people leave thier comfortable routines and go Seeking - the only I've not seen destroyed by that as yet was Randolph Carter and he nearly was from not looking in the right places. <<;;

But that thing about revealing what was always there, that's a big theme, present in one way or another in every last story I've read so far. And what was always there is always something you/the protagonist was much, much better off Not Knowing. Fear the unknown, for it shall Eat You! ...and it might be hidden in your next-door neighbor! Ahhhh!

...How this man managed to walk the streets without gibbering, I cannot understand. <<;;;

I've read far too much science fiction, I guess. The Other tends to be couched in the ordinary. The ones who win are the ones who does the old themes best, not necessarily breaking out into new archetypes.

It's fun to dissect things and try to figure out why he is insane.

But true insanity needs no reason, has no reason. Usually it's grades of obsession and delusion, not the Real Thing.

here I think I define more as a being or person so lacking in some as-yet-undefined thing that I cannot empathize with them? At all?

But... I emphatize with all of them. I may be repulsed by them, but I just... get inside. I don't tend to base my perception on Humanity, though. I mean... they don't have to be 100% like me to understand the hows and whys. *Then* I judge them on my own standards. But by then, well. Your enemy is your teacher. I've already sniffed around their skin.

...You know, if I had read these stories when I was younger it could concievably have permentaly screwed with my brain?

After a certain age I looked for those kinds of stories on purpose. But yeah. Not when I was younger.

Fear the unknown, for it shall Eat You!

But if you Know it, it's not unknown anymore. Then you can just deal with the Eating part. I like the next-door-neighbor part, though. It's not that I don't like those stories so much as... I don't poke 'em as much as the other kind. ^^

But true insanity needs no reason, has no reason. Usually it's grades of obsession and delusion, not the Real Thing.

? ...Has to start somewhere, doesn't it? Something has to tilt a person over thier individual edge?

But if you Know it, it's not unknown anymore. Then you can just deal with the Eating part. Yep. I have seen one character do this, so far, an old scholar in the occult who had also somewhat studied the Necronomicron, and decided you know - someone ought to do something about the World-Eating Horror that he had learned was loose. << And he was able to talk two friends into helping? Only because they had also seen an Unnatural Thing dissolving before thier eyes, so you know, kinda left them inclined to believe him. I notice that all three were highly intelligent persons...

they don't have to be 100% like me to understand the hows and whys.

Well, no. But there's something I'm still defining here... best words I can come up with right now is, even if there is a morality different than my own, there's got to still be something I can feel/understand... even if it has to go through some process of translation for me to get it. >.< Fuzzy thought-feelings without words. x.x

It's going to keep bothering me, though, because there's still That Bastard. Where other people I have disliked I have slowly come to understand better, this one I have not. I see why/how he ended up as he did, but still. He is That Bastard and Must Die.

Though rarely have I seen such a perfect ending, not only for the poetic justice in relation to the above, but for the realism... the big issues are dealt with, but individual people's lives - depend on how they reacted to things, and what they're willing and capable of doing, after the flood of adventure washes away and leaves on terra firma again. Because certain things there just suck, and yet in a completely believeable way. Like the way my job often sucks... XD << Can you tell I like Otherland?

? ...Has to start somewhere, doesn't it? Something has to tilt a person over their individual edge?

Sure. It can start in the Pit.
That is insanity. All the rest is madness.

I have seen one character do this

Methinks I've misplaced a part of that... it's not so much the ability to do it as looking at the world as though you *always* have the ability to do it. Which conveniently cancels out a large chunk of Fear, though perhaps not Dread.

I mean, as a scientist, I tend to look at the world as a place where the Known can change into the Unknown and vice versa. In other words, it's not necessarily a label that sticks, because knowledge is always changing and evolving, as is the world, as are the various balances of power. So to me it's a process that kind of cancels out helplessness. Also you may not be able to do much, but knowing something's Name is still a kind of power. One never ever runs out of wiggle-room when it comes to free will. They may, however, run out of life to live, or run out of luck. Everything else is how one looks at the situation.

That's part of why we bottom out certain aggressive bishounen? We want them to experience a kind of helplessness, because that kind of worldview -- that shifts all the time, that never denies one's own free will -- is essentially selfish. Power runs both ways. If you know something's Name, you are in a small way responsible for it. To be helpless is to be responsible for nothing, because the universe has thrown you out. That's why some people seek to be victimized. S'why it's interesting to rip the rug from boys who are too shiny, because then you get to see them emotionally and spiritually naked, at least till they pick their handcuffs.

He is That Bastard and Must Die.

Well, yeah. There are plenty of people like that. But the thing is... I still see it. The real choice for me as a person and as a writer is: do I do anything about it? Am I like Athrun who needs to stop whenever the rigid rules iceberg-crash into real life? Or am I like ~~Jesus~~ Kira who sees all sides, hurts and rages for all sides, but still does what needs to be done without hesitation?

To speak religiously for a bit, Jesus (and a lot of certain kinds of prophets) introduced the radical concept of forgiving your enemy. I mean, our most sacred prayer includes praying for those who have wronged us. Well to me there's a huge corollary that it's also our job to understand our enemy. That tends to eliminate sides -- eliminate Others, eliminate enemies. Then what you're left with is the Issue at Hand. Not an easy thing to do! Certain zealots tend to skip to the Saving part without doing the Understanding part. Because that takes real Courage, I don't care what sort of bravura-fey JKR stylizes Gryffindor into.

depend on how they reacted to things, and what they're willing and capable of doing, after the flood of adventure washes away and leaves on terra firma again.

Read to the current end of the Vorkosigan series and you just might.

<< Madness, then. ;p *corrects terminology and hides from you*

Dammit, am losing coherency. It is interesting that over the course of this, Gerald's attitude has shifted from smug to disturbed... I have a handle on how to screw with his head, now. You know. << ...whether I'm actually ruthless enough to do something like is debatable. >>;

Gah. Am totally getting sidetracked onto Gerald. Although there is a certain sense in that... the way the main religious system is a sort of conglomerate, Christianity-type setup. And what you've said about looking at the world as a scientist being remarkably similiar to some of Gerald's thoughts... or the actions that infer those thoughts have taken place?

And then there's the fact that to begin with, he does seem to be that too-shiny, all smooth-surfaced and unreachable. Only, story progresses and does take a lot of the rug out from under him, and that definition of a scientic view of the world? I know what it is, it's that he has a scientific view of control. Actually can understand the idea that sometimes you have to give it up to keep it. ..which is not to say that he's gracious about it. The sudden short tempered vicious hissingness. *snerks*

Also, because I might as well continue now I've started - I remember once, a Sistermagpie post about Harry and Draco being essentially the same boy, just on different sides and with different upbringings? And how that seemed to be a pattern, she'd noticed in other things? There's something of that in Gerald and Damien too... the biggest differences I can point out are 1. a kind of inborn power that Gerald has and Damien doesn't 2. seriously different upbringings 3. the biggest one - Damien does not have that fear of the Other. I mean, Gerald I think has learned to sublimate and deal with it to a large degree - and also there is this thing, I can't remember where I've seen it mentioned, but something about a person's greatest fears and desires being entangled together? Flip sides of the same coin? So to a certain degree, he's had to deal with it... but Damien just doesn't have it. Period. I think his biggest fear might just be not mattering, not being able to affect the Fate of the World. ...Helplessness? Not-sure... but I know it's why he went into the priesthood. Belief that that was the only way to change the world.

As for forgiveness, ^_^ But that is always the hardest thing to do - building up instead of tearing down, and espcially the skipping to the Saving part? Approached that way? Is tearing down the other person's Otherness in order to make them be just like you. >.< Which is not salvation, it is brainwashing. >:/

Read to the current end of the Vorkosigan series and you just might. That will be sooo cool! *.*

Yeah, it's a thin line between Doing What Needs Doing and Deciding for Others What They Need to be Doing. Ref. the X-Laws.

Oh I think forgiveness does not necessarily involve making anyone look better than they are. It's more like, I think, seeing all the horribleness and accepting this inside the forgiveness. You gotta be kind of crazy to do the extremes.

The scarier bit is tearing down your own barriers between yourself and the Other. Then you become just like them.

^^

and meep o.o

And more to let you know I did see and read because I seemed to have used up my burst of Literate!Intelligence? ^^;;

You gotta be kind of crazy to do the extremes.

Ahhhh! Forcing me to hide from teh Pink is not helping! Then my brain hides and there is only babble! o.o;

hmm, that might be why I'm a bit strange, then? I *loved* Poe and Hawthorne and such as a kid? And ghost stories, fairytales, mythology (mostly Greek, a little Roman, I notice in retrospect) and 'factual' demon/possession/vampire/etc. stuff, to the point that the parentages worried a bit? I'm pretty sure I remember reading The Odyssey and The Illiad for fun, and being surprised and pleased to run into them again in high school? read encyclopedias for fun, too^^

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Lovecraft

slight ramblage...

Re: slight ramblage...

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let me rephrase with visual aid.

Re: let me rephrase with visual aid.

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