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Feb. 20th, 2004 09:12 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
spokeVirtues, and Jin vs Rei
Hook was not his true name. To reveal who he really was would even at this date set the country in a blaze; but as those who read between the lines must already have guessed, he had been at a famous public school; and its traditions still cling to him like garments, with which indeed they are largely concerned. Thus it was offensive to him even now to board a ship in the dress in which he grappled her; and he still adhered his walk to the school's distinguished slouch. But above all he retained the passion for good form.
Good form! However much he may have degenerated, he still knew that this is all that really matters.
From far within him he heard the creaking as of rusty portals, and through them came a stern tap-tap-tap, like hammering in the night when one cannot sleep. "Have you been good form today?" was thier eternal question.
"Fame, fame, that glittering bauble, it is mine," he cried.
"Is it quite good form to be distinguised at anything?" the tap-tap from his school replied.
"I am the only man whom Barbecue feared,"he urged, "and Flint himself feared Barbecue.
"Barbecue, Flint - what house?" came the cutting retort.
Most disquieting reflection of all, was it not bad form to think about good form?
His vitals were tortured by this problem. It was a claw within him sharper than than the iron one; and as it tore him, the persperation dripped down his sallow countenance and streaked his doublet. Oft-times he drew his sleeve across his face but there was no damming that trickle.
Ah, envy not Hook.
There came to him a presentiment of his early dissolution. It was as if Peter's terrible oath had boarded the ship. Hook felt a gloomy desire to make his dying speech, lest presently there should be no time for it.
"Better for Hook," he cried, "if he had had less ambition." It was in his darkest hours only that he referred to himself in the third person.
"No little children love me."
Strange that he should think of this, which had never troubled him before; perhaps the sewing machine brought it to his mind. For long he muttered to himself, staring at Smee, who was hemming placidly, under the conviction that all children feared him.
Feared him! Feared Smee! There was not a child on board the brig that night who did not already love him. He had said horrid things to them and hit them with the palm of his hand, because he could not hit with his fist; but they had only clung to him the more. Michael had tried on his spectacles.
To tell poor Smee that they thought him lovable! Hook itched to do it, but it seemed too brutal. Instead, he resolved this mystery in his mind : why do they find Smee loveable? He pursued the problem like the sleuth-hound that he was. If Smee was lovable, what was it that made him so? A terrible answe suddenly presented itself: "Good form?"
Had the bosun good form without knowing it, which is the best form of all?
He remembered that you have to prove you don't know you have it before you are elgible for Pop.
With a cry of rage he raised his iron hand over Smee's head; but he did not tear. What arrested him was this reflection:
"To claw a man because he is good form, what would that be?"
"Bad form!"
From Peter Pan and Wendy, by James. M. Barrie
"Because, if you stop to think of it, the Three Rules of Robotics are the essential guiding principles of a good many of the world's ethical systems. Of course, every human being is supposed to have the instinct of self-preservation. That's Rule Three to a robot. Also every 'good' human being, with a social conscience and a sense of responsibility, is supposed to defer to proper authority; to listen to his doctor, his boss, his government, his pyschiatrist, his fellow man; to obey laws, to follow rules, to conform to custom - even when they interfere with his comfort or his safety. That's Rule Two to a robot. Also, every 'good' human being is supposed to love others as himself, protect his fellow man, risk his life to save another. That's Rule One to a robot. To put it simply - if Byerley follows all the Rules of Robotics, he may be a robot, and may simply be a very good man.
From 'Robot Visions', a collection of short stories and essays by Issac Asimov
So, I'm looking at these and suddenly something occurs to me... in admiring Jin, one is subtly encouraged to think less of Rei.
But you see, the thing Rei in any 'form', be it the Samurai virtue or Hook's form or Asimov's Rules; is that it's the codified essence of what we want good to be, what we think it should be. And also a reaction to the fact that sometimes good contradicts itself.
And these ideals that we name morality arise out of trying to resolve those conflicts, and people passing down each lesson, solution and comprimise to thier children, and they to thiers, so on until they become social mores.
An example of contradictions... it's good to be polite; it is also good to be innocent, or to have such an openess of personality that one seems innocent. And the sort of 'innocence' that applies here is that one talks without reservations, without considering 'will my words hurt the other person, and should I put the other's comfort above speaking the truth.'
The truth is Jin and the consideration is Rei. But consideration, if it arises naturally out of one's personality, is also Jin; and if the consideration is one's first reaction, then that's a higher 'good', or is held to be, than if one is simply and sometimes brutally honest. In this situation, Rei would arise out of the attempt to impose consideration - teaching manners.
A lot of Rei seems like that - the attempt to impose moral values - but without that attempt, humanity in essence civilizing itself, where would we be? Wondering why good contradicts itself sometimes, insteading of arguing the points of various moral codes, maybe...
There is this episode in Samurai Troopers, where Our Hero Ryo is caught in a situation of choosing between two good choices. All of his friends have been swallowed by the demon Arago. Now, setting aside the question of whether he really had the power to do this or not, because we're examining the morality of his choices and not the military capacity to act on them....
If Ryo does not destroy Arago, the world dies. Saving the world is good.
If Ryo does destroy Arago, his friends (still alive inside the demon) will die. Saving his friends? Is good.
And Ryo, having the virtue of Jin, can't choose. Literally cannot. He angsts over this decision for nearly two whole episodes, despite his friends three times intervening to encourage him to destroy Arago. Despite the intervention of thier guide/mentor Kaos, showing him a history lesson about Arago and much of the nature of thier armors.
There's a line one of them has, on thier third try, when they actually speak to him... "Don't be selfish, Ryo." And this is harsh but true - it is putting personal good, his and his friends' above the higher good or saving the world which they had sworn to do. But Ryo, even in reacting out of selfishness, can't see past the contradiction in the choice.
It's only when he sees his friends, in misery, and realizes that he actually can't save them the way he's going... then he realizes what his choice should have been from the start. Admits that he was wrong, but. He needed them to help him make that choice, as much as he needed thier help to call the armor that would let them win.
And it's very much a Rei choice, you know, discerning which is a higher good.
Hook was not his true name. To reveal who he really was would even at this date set the country in a blaze; but as those who read between the lines must already have guessed, he had been at a famous public school; and its traditions still cling to him like garments, with which indeed they are largely concerned. Thus it was offensive to him even now to board a ship in the dress in which he grappled her; and he still adhered his walk to the school's distinguished slouch. But above all he retained the passion for good form.
Good form! However much he may have degenerated, he still knew that this is all that really matters.
From far within him he heard the creaking as of rusty portals, and through them came a stern tap-tap-tap, like hammering in the night when one cannot sleep. "Have you been good form today?" was thier eternal question.
"Fame, fame, that glittering bauble, it is mine," he cried.
"Is it quite good form to be distinguised at anything?" the tap-tap from his school replied.
"I am the only man whom Barbecue feared,"he urged, "and Flint himself feared Barbecue.
"Barbecue, Flint - what house?" came the cutting retort.
Most disquieting reflection of all, was it not bad form to think about good form?
His vitals were tortured by this problem. It was a claw within him sharper than than the iron one; and as it tore him, the persperation dripped down his sallow countenance and streaked his doublet. Oft-times he drew his sleeve across his face but there was no damming that trickle.
Ah, envy not Hook.
There came to him a presentiment of his early dissolution. It was as if Peter's terrible oath had boarded the ship. Hook felt a gloomy desire to make his dying speech, lest presently there should be no time for it.
"Better for Hook," he cried, "if he had had less ambition." It was in his darkest hours only that he referred to himself in the third person.
"No little children love me."
Strange that he should think of this, which had never troubled him before; perhaps the sewing machine brought it to his mind. For long he muttered to himself, staring at Smee, who was hemming placidly, under the conviction that all children feared him.
Feared him! Feared Smee! There was not a child on board the brig that night who did not already love him. He had said horrid things to them and hit them with the palm of his hand, because he could not hit with his fist; but they had only clung to him the more. Michael had tried on his spectacles.
To tell poor Smee that they thought him lovable! Hook itched to do it, but it seemed too brutal. Instead, he resolved this mystery in his mind : why do they find Smee loveable? He pursued the problem like the sleuth-hound that he was. If Smee was lovable, what was it that made him so? A terrible answe suddenly presented itself: "Good form?"
Had the bosun good form without knowing it, which is the best form of all?
He remembered that you have to prove you don't know you have it before you are elgible for Pop.
With a cry of rage he raised his iron hand over Smee's head; but he did not tear. What arrested him was this reflection:
"To claw a man because he is good form, what would that be?"
"Bad form!"
From Peter Pan and Wendy, by James. M. Barrie
"Because, if you stop to think of it, the Three Rules of Robotics are the essential guiding principles of a good many of the world's ethical systems. Of course, every human being is supposed to have the instinct of self-preservation. That's Rule Three to a robot. Also every 'good' human being, with a social conscience and a sense of responsibility, is supposed to defer to proper authority; to listen to his doctor, his boss, his government, his pyschiatrist, his fellow man; to obey laws, to follow rules, to conform to custom - even when they interfere with his comfort or his safety. That's Rule Two to a robot. Also, every 'good' human being is supposed to love others as himself, protect his fellow man, risk his life to save another. That's Rule One to a robot. To put it simply - if Byerley follows all the Rules of Robotics, he may be a robot, and may simply be a very good man.
From 'Robot Visions', a collection of short stories and essays by Issac Asimov
So, I'm looking at these and suddenly something occurs to me... in admiring Jin, one is subtly encouraged to think less of Rei.
But you see, the thing Rei in any 'form', be it the Samurai virtue or Hook's form or Asimov's Rules; is that it's the codified essence of what we want good to be, what we think it should be. And also a reaction to the fact that sometimes good contradicts itself.
And these ideals that we name morality arise out of trying to resolve those conflicts, and people passing down each lesson, solution and comprimise to thier children, and they to thiers, so on until they become social mores.
An example of contradictions... it's good to be polite; it is also good to be innocent, or to have such an openess of personality that one seems innocent. And the sort of 'innocence' that applies here is that one talks without reservations, without considering 'will my words hurt the other person, and should I put the other's comfort above speaking the truth.'
The truth is Jin and the consideration is Rei. But consideration, if it arises naturally out of one's personality, is also Jin; and if the consideration is one's first reaction, then that's a higher 'good', or is held to be, than if one is simply and sometimes brutally honest. In this situation, Rei would arise out of the attempt to impose consideration - teaching manners.
A lot of Rei seems like that - the attempt to impose moral values - but without that attempt, humanity in essence civilizing itself, where would we be? Wondering why good contradicts itself sometimes, insteading of arguing the points of various moral codes, maybe...
There is this episode in Samurai Troopers, where Our Hero Ryo is caught in a situation of choosing between two good choices. All of his friends have been swallowed by the demon Arago. Now, setting aside the question of whether he really had the power to do this or not, because we're examining the morality of his choices and not the military capacity to act on them....
If Ryo does not destroy Arago, the world dies. Saving the world is good.
If Ryo does destroy Arago, his friends (still alive inside the demon) will die. Saving his friends? Is good.
And Ryo, having the virtue of Jin, can't choose. Literally cannot. He angsts over this decision for nearly two whole episodes, despite his friends three times intervening to encourage him to destroy Arago. Despite the intervention of thier guide/mentor Kaos, showing him a history lesson about Arago and much of the nature of thier armors.
There's a line one of them has, on thier third try, when they actually speak to him... "Don't be selfish, Ryo." And this is harsh but true - it is putting personal good, his and his friends' above the higher good or saving the world which they had sworn to do. But Ryo, even in reacting out of selfishness, can't see past the contradiction in the choice.
It's only when he sees his friends, in misery, and realizes that he actually can't save them the way he's going... then he realizes what his choice should have been from the start. Admits that he was wrong, but. He needed them to help him make that choice, as much as he needed thier help to call the armor that would let them win.
And it's very much a Rei choice, you know, discerning which is a higher good.
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Date: 2004-02-20 07:21 pm (UTC)Seiji has a different problem with Rei. Take his misogyny. And yes it's not very nice to be all dismissive of Nasuti and Jun! But that's how it's supposed to be in Japan. Gender is very much a *division* in a way that it's not in Western systems. Seiji has been groomed to be the heir, and ironically he lives in a household dominated by women. But it's his *destiny* to be a samurai. His grandfather has pushed him into kendo and he fuckin' excels. He is a champion. For pete's sake, Date Masamune's statue looks over his hometown! All his life he has been set apart (And he resents the hell out of it, given his penchant for driving several years before he's legal and racing cars plus all the rebellion stuff) and now it's his hour to shine.
And to his fluffy head, it's Not Right that women and children are not evacuated. It's Not Good to rush into battle like a bunch of kids damnit Shuu shuttup and listen to meeee. So yeah. XD But alone, especially in the meditation scenes, I think he's been given *that* as a conflict because not all is quiet in the mind of Date Seiji. Kujuurou is so DAMN good at distracting him. That's because he, ah, likes shiny things. There's always been one way, always! But in battle it doesn't work like that.
There's a contrast with Touma who at times hesitates because the most logical path is not clear to him yet... Touma's is a problem of timing. Seiji's problem is subtly different. He needs to both discern what the right path is, and figure out how to execute it. He doesn't have Ryo's instinct, his presence in the moment (which is an important Buddhist thing.) Seiji's worst moments come when he's being inflexible. His best, such as when he dropped his sword and let Shuu attack him, are when he is at one with what he must do. He doesn't resist, he just does it.
It's interesting that he basically lets Anubis take him into the Youjakai.
Re:
Date: 2004-02-22 06:13 pm (UTC)Reading this keeps making me see this particular expression on Anubis' face during that episode... dammit I need to be able to get screencaps! << But it's when he's standing in the cave, after Seiji breaks free of the ice? and his lines are "Come. Come to me. You shall be relieved of your troubles... ...as you awaken to a new, evil spirit!" ...Now i'm always going to listen to these lines and hear 'Lookit the shiny conflict, Seiji - follow the shiny conflict, that's it...' XD
It's interesting that he basically lets Anubis take him into the Youjakai.
But - he doesn't. He turns his back on the gate to focus on the armor, and Arago zaps him. :( Anubis was already passed out. *winces*
Shuu 'lets' Rajura, but I think that was more overconfidence on Shuu's part. Like, he really expected to be able to rescue Seiji and Shin. >.<
And Touma - and ack omg late. Must run try again tomorrow! Sorry!